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on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks

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with Pittsburg State professor early

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about his book from the bodies of the

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gods psychoactive plants and the cults

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of the Dead you connect in your book the

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use of mushrooms in prehistoric times

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with some rather shocking ideas about

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how mushrooms might have been cultivated

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and used in early Christian times my

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theory is that in ancient times there

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were people who were identified as

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shaymin either male or female who was

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the person who would consume the

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mushrooms and that over time as a shame

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and a shameless uses the mushrooms they

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tend to get the little mushroom bores on

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their clothing and that later when that

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person dies and is buried I think is a

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very strong likelihood especially if

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they're in a shallow grave and a moist

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grave for those things those mushrooms

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actually Grove living off of the mixture

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of the natural fibers plus whatever

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liquids or viscid liquids might be

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whipped up from the decaying body and

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that link there in people's minds

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psychologically that this is what we use

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to communicate with the dead with the

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with the gods who listen to the dead and

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with the end how we have visions of the

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welcome to skeptic aware we explore

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controversial science with leading

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researchers thinkers and their critics

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i'm your host Aleksic harrison on this

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episode of skeptic oh I have an

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interview with a professor from

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Pittsburg State University where we

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explore his interesting theory that the

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origins of many of our religions

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including Christianity Judaism and Islam

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can be traced back to the use of

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hallucinogenic drugs he even has some

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startling evidence about the cultivation

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of those mushrooms but we'll leave that

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for the interview what I wanted to do

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before the interview was at a little

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context to this dialogue particularly

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since early is an atheist rather

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outspoken atheist and as much as I

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appreciate his scholarship on this topic

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and the information that he's brought

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forth which is really important for

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understanding these traditions that are

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so much a part of our culture and I

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don't care whether you live in europe

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and you think you've shed yourself from

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all religious trappings and all the rest

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of that hey these a BRI attic traditions

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are woven deep deep deep into our

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culture and there's no escaping that so

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this kind of work that aims it seriously

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rewriting or rectifying that history I

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think is important to all of us at the

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same time I'm amazed how academics in

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general and atheists in particular can't

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look deeper into the psychedelic

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experience and what it points to in

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terms of extended human consciousness I

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mean all the current research we have

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with hallucinogenics Rick Strassman

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David Nutt all the rest suggests that

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hallucinogenics are pointing us not

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towards the same old mind equals brain

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paradigm but to this idea of extended

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human consciousness not to earls credit

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I think he's willing to go there more

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than most people are but it still amazes

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me that more can't see how this little

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twist in the story from tripping early

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Christians to

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early Christians that are achieving

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transformative spiritual experiences

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through the aid of psychedelic drugs why

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that little twist in the road is it more

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obvious this was a fascinating

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discussion for me I really appreciate

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the scholarship of early whose work

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continues to fly under the radar despite

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its massive implications I hope you

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enjoy this dialogue with early from

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Pittsburg State University today we

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welcome early to skeptic 0 as a faculty

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member and honorary professor at

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Pittsburg State University now that's in

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Kansas folks but it is called Pittsburg

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State Earl is the author of a

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fascinating book titled from the body of

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the Gods psychoactive plants and the

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cults of the Dead fascinating stuff Earl

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thanks so much for joining me and

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welcome to skeptic oh oh right here well

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you've written quite a book here and I

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have to say the first thing that really

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caught my eye is a review a blurb on the

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back of it from none other than dr.

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Larry Dossey someone I've interviewed

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before and who I really respect a lot

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let me read what he writes from time to

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time a book comes along that stops you

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in your track and stuns your mind from

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the bodies of the gods is such a book it

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will and should provoke intense

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discussion about some of the most

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fundamental underpinnings of Western

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religions Wow powerful stuff so congrats

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on that and you don't have to say in

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reading it it's packed with a lot of

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historical references but it's also very

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readable so congratulations on this book

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well thanks very much I appreciate it

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okay well you know I'm doing a lot of

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talking here before I dig into all this

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other stuff tell us at a high level what

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kind of picture this book paints about

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these cults of the Dead and the

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connection to hallucinogenics and also

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obviously the connection to the

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modern-day religious movements that we

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know about

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what I did was I collect the material

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going back Oh 30 years I first began

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work on this in the late 70s early 80s

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and at that time I really hadn't

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connected with the the hallucinogenic

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mushroom side of it but over time they

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kept putting pieces together and that

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finally come up but I think of Africa's

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theory about where modern religion comes

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from because i believe particularly in

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the mediterranean era area and in the

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near East that we have little religions

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all over the place that are essentially

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cults of the Dead now they're called

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cult of the dead is kind of a generic

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term for religious they're based around

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the idea of worshiping our ancestors or

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our ancestors who have sort of

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transition to being almost godlike or

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supernatural figures and this kind of

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worship is really common all over the

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world right if I could just interject

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you know one of the first things that I

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I encounter when I read the book is like

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yeah so what and then I had to really

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think about it go wait a minute why is

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there this obsession with death and

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moreover as you point out in the book

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not just an obsession with death but a

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series of very elaborate rituals that

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get even more elaborate as time goes on

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and you do a nice job of kind of tracing

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how it just gets more and more elaborate

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these cultish rituals around death right

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well that's especially true with the

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Egyptians because they had a really

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rather strange i dunno if i should call

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strange but they had an unusual way they

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kind of built a religion in layers and i

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believe in one of his books Sir Wallace

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buzz she was written all these many

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books on on Egyptology points this out

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he said apparently the Egyptians would

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try this right and try that right and

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try one spell and try another spell and

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if it worked they kept it and if it

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didn't work they tossed it out but they

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never seem to actually gone back and

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gotten rid of anything so you have this

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like a pearl being created layer after

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layer after layer more and more spells

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began until five you end up with this

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thing the size of the well actually that

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the

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cumulation of spells and rights that

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have that have at some point worked

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whether they stop working out at that

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apparently didn't they didn't know or

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care but it kind of it worked once and

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so they ended up with this very

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elaborate religion based on spells that

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and rites and rituals that at one time

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seemed to have worked for what they were

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trying to accomplish as you point out in

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the book the Egyptian religion and some

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of these other religions particularly in

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Crete stay with us if you will in

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influence the religions that were more

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accustomed to well yeah that I think

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it's especially interesting to study

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that the religion on Crete because of

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its influence to some extent on the

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Greeks because the big there's no Crete

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was very strong influence on the Greeks

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as was the Egyptian religion the

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Egyptians back and very the old days you

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to actually send out missionaries to all

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over the world including degrees and so

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there's a very strong Egyptian influence

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in Greece too but the interesting thing

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I think in Minoan history is history of

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Crete is at one point about a thousand

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years before the birth of actually is a

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little before the birth of Judaism they

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had this disaster where a an island in

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the Mediterranean sploded and this shock

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wave of water went in all directions to

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hit Crete and didn't ormos amount of

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damage and from that point on kind of

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the Minoans really were never quite

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recovered from that disaster and quite a

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few people living on Crete actually

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migrated to Palestine and Egypt in other

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areas and took with them a lot of their

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religious ideas so I believe that a lot

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of the ideas that were developed on

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increase ended up being adopted absorbed

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by the people living in Palestine and

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the people in Egypt and elsewhere and

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some of those ideas I think are still

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very alive today in Christianity so

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let's switch over and talk about the

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part that really is going to fascinate

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so many people and that's the use of

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these hallucinogenics these mushrooms

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and

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particular as your book posits where

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these mushrooms are being cultivated

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because you connect in your book the use

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of mushrooms in prehistoric times by

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shamans and these cave paintings with

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some rather shocking ideas about how

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mushrooms might have been cultivated and

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used in in ancient times but in in early

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Christian times and right around that

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period take us through that I guess in

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my theory is that in ancient times there

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were people who were identified as

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shaymin or or either male or female who

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was the person who would consume the

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mushrooms in order to prof I the future

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whether it was good crops or whether

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they needed to travel to some other

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place and that sort of thing and that

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over time as a shame and a shameless

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uses the mushrooms they tend to get the

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little mushroom us I caught spores on

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their clothing and that later when that

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person dies and is buried I think is a

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very strong likelihood especially if

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they're in a shallow grave and a moist

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grave for those things those mushrooms

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actually growth on a living off of the

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mixture of the natural fibers plus

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whatever liquids or viscid liquids might

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be whipped up from the decaying body and

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the reason I think this is probably what

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happened is because I think that at some

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point the bodies were they accidentally

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unearthed and people saw these mushrooms

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growing on these bodies and decided that

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this person was particularly holy and

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that the mushrooms that come from a

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corpse are probably particularly

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valuable in terms of communicating with

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the gods or with the that's the world or

276
00:12:37,740 --> 00:12:35,500
the afterlife and that link there in

277
00:12:39,870 --> 00:12:37,750
people's minds psychologically that this

278
00:12:42,690 --> 00:12:39,880
is what we use to communicate with the

279
00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:42,700
dead with the with the gods who listen

280
00:12:47,370 --> 00:12:45,010
to the dead and with the and how we have

281
00:12:49,620 --> 00:12:47,380
visions of the next world and you can

282
00:12:52,110 --> 00:12:49,630
see that idea reflected

283
00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:52,120
particularly an Egyptian religion but at

284
00:12:57,570 --> 00:12:54,850
other religions too it's a fascinating

285
00:13:00,450 --> 00:12:57,580
fascinating theory and it kind of makes

286
00:13:02,700 --> 00:13:00,460
a lot of sense i mean just anecdotally

287
00:13:05,130 --> 00:13:02,710
as you tell it isn't there some evidence

288
00:13:07,670 --> 00:13:05,140
that you point to in the book of cave

289
00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:07,680
paintings that would support this idea

290
00:13:14,940 --> 00:13:11,050
well they found a series of cain caves

291
00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:14,950
in southern algeria and this area is i

292
00:13:21,090 --> 00:13:18,330
think particularly interesting because

293
00:13:23,460 --> 00:13:21,100
you have these cave paintings that show

294
00:13:25,290 --> 00:13:23,470
people dancing in a circle and the

295
00:13:28,230 --> 00:13:25,300
people have heads it or shaped like

296
00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:28,240
mushrooms but the most interesting pain

297
00:13:33,330 --> 00:13:31,330
they have is a picture of this body or

298
00:13:34,860 --> 00:13:33,340
this man who of course since it's two

299
00:13:38,130 --> 00:13:34,870
dimension can't tell whether he's lying

300
00:13:39,900 --> 00:13:38,140
down or standing up but he has his whole

301
00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:39,910
body is covered the whole hot line is

302
00:13:44,220 --> 00:13:41,530
covered with little mushroom shape and

303
00:13:46,350 --> 00:13:44,230
not only that but his body itself it has

304
00:13:50,790 --> 00:13:46,360
kind of a net shape law which you could

305
00:13:52,470 --> 00:13:50,800
describe as being a net or maybe yeah a

306
00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:52,480
net is probably the best description of

307
00:13:57,390 --> 00:13:55,090
it and my theory is that this is really

308
00:13:59,520 --> 00:13:57,400
a hope it was the people have looked at

309
00:14:02,280 --> 00:13:59,530
this say that this is a an imaginary

310
00:14:03,990 --> 00:14:02,290
painting of a shame and in communication

311
00:14:06,750 --> 00:14:04,000
with the spirit world needs mushrooms or

312
00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:06,760
how he did it but I believe this this

313
00:14:10,980 --> 00:14:08,370
penny is actually fairly realistic

314
00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:10,990
because I think this is actually a dead

315
00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:13,930
body with mushrooms growing off of his

316
00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:15,850
body because the mushrooms are

317
00:14:20,970 --> 00:14:18,130
everywhere except on this strange be

318
00:14:23,310 --> 00:14:20,980
shaped mask that he's wearing which of

319
00:14:25,260 --> 00:14:23,320
course the mushrooms would grow i mask

320
00:14:26,610 --> 00:14:25,270
whatever was made up but would grow on

321
00:14:28,050 --> 00:14:26,620
the body and i think that's a clear

322
00:14:32,310 --> 00:14:28,060
indication that this is one of the very

323
00:14:33,810 --> 00:14:32,320
early mushroom Shaymin who had actually

324
00:14:36,780 --> 00:14:33,820
mushrooms growing from his body that

325
00:14:40,170 --> 00:14:36,790
people could consume well let's connect

326
00:14:45,090 --> 00:14:40,180
that with mushroom or hallucinogenic use

327
00:14:47,340 --> 00:14:45,100
in Christianity as depicted in medieval

328
00:14:49,500 --> 00:14:47,350
art that we know of what can you tell us

329
00:14:51,630 --> 00:14:49,510
about that and I know there's some

330
00:14:54,030 --> 00:14:51,640
controversy surrounding that but how

331
00:14:57,680 --> 00:14:54,040
well established is it that we can look

332
00:14:59,960 --> 00:14:57,690
at medieval art and as a source of

333
00:15:03,190 --> 00:14:59,970
understanding the importance of these

334
00:15:06,130 --> 00:15:03,200
hallucinogenics among Christians

335
00:15:08,290 --> 00:15:06,140
well actually the the use of whose no

336
00:15:11,100 --> 00:15:08,300
genex in Christianity goes back to the

337
00:15:14,190 --> 00:15:11,110
very beginning and earlier than that

338
00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:14,200
according to the theory I worked out

339
00:15:23,140 --> 00:15:20,170
when the Jews first moved from Egypt to

340
00:15:27,780 --> 00:15:23,150
Palestine they took with them a religion

341
00:15:30,460 --> 00:15:27,790
that would combined their sort of ethnic

342
00:15:33,310 --> 00:15:30,470
semitic ideas about religion along with

343
00:15:34,630 --> 00:15:33,320
a layer of egyptian ideas and they

344
00:15:38,050 --> 00:15:34,640
actually created kind of a hybrid

345
00:15:40,060 --> 00:15:38,060
religion that was a guess I would call

346
00:15:41,970 --> 00:15:40,070
the Hebrew cult of the dead as close to

347
00:15:44,470 --> 00:15:41,980
the Egyptian calls the dead or the

348
00:15:46,270 --> 00:15:44,480
Semitic version whichever but this is

349
00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:46,280
kind of a merger of the Semitic and the

350
00:15:51,790 --> 00:15:49,490
Egyptian together and that that was what

351
00:15:55,150 --> 00:15:51,800
the Hebrew religion really was in the

352
00:16:00,430 --> 00:15:55,160
beginning a worship of the dead who they

353
00:16:02,650 --> 00:16:00,440
called the eloheem over time in the

354
00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:02,660
beginning that in Palestine they had all

355
00:16:06,190 --> 00:16:04,730
these little individual shrines and

356
00:16:08,890 --> 00:16:06,200
their religious sites all over the

357
00:16:10,750 --> 00:16:08,900
country and if you were a typical Hebrew

358
00:16:12,130 --> 00:16:10,760
you could go or anybody else live in

359
00:16:13,690 --> 00:16:12,140
there you could go to the shrine and

360
00:16:16,150 --> 00:16:13,700
whoever the trial is dedicated to

361
00:16:17,950 --> 00:16:16,160
whether it was 22 Moses or just some

362
00:16:20,950 --> 00:16:17,960
other historic figure or some other God

363
00:16:23,170 --> 00:16:20,960
and you could sacrifice your goat or

364
00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:23,180
your animal or whatever it was there and

365
00:16:28,740 --> 00:16:25,130
the smoke would ascend to the heavens

366
00:16:32,050 --> 00:16:28,750
and the gods were happy but as

367
00:16:34,630 --> 00:16:32,060
urbanization took place there was a

368
00:16:38,290 --> 00:16:34,640
stronger sense of trying to reunite the

369
00:16:41,650 --> 00:16:38,300
country's hunter 1 capital and under one

370
00:16:44,050 --> 00:16:41,660
religion it's particularly true in

371
00:16:45,670 --> 00:16:44,060
Jerusalem that they didn't like the fact

372
00:16:47,110 --> 00:16:45,680
that all these little priests and

373
00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:47,120
shrines all over the place they had no

374
00:16:53,230 --> 00:16:48,890
control over they wanted to centralize

375
00:16:54,870 --> 00:16:53,240
the religious belief in Jerusalem and so

376
00:16:58,300 --> 00:16:54,880
they actually started a campaign

377
00:17:00,120 --> 00:16:58,310
probably around 800 BC to try to put

378
00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:00,130
these other guys out of business and

379
00:17:04,750 --> 00:17:02,330
very often they would make deals with

380
00:17:06,579 --> 00:17:04,760
whoever the kings or rulers were to help

381
00:17:08,050 --> 00:17:06,589
them do that and the Old Testament is

382
00:17:09,699 --> 00:17:08,060
full of stories where they'll go out and

383
00:17:11,350 --> 00:17:09,709
they'll try to kill this bunch of

384
00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:11,360
priests or that bunch of priests they

385
00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:13,010
always called them the priests of Baal

386
00:17:16,390 --> 00:17:15,290
that's usually the people to call the

387
00:17:18,730 --> 00:17:16,400
priests of Baal or the

388
00:17:20,590 --> 00:17:18,740
the worshipers of hash sure are whoever

389
00:17:22,360 --> 00:17:20,600
they are but in fact they're just the

390
00:17:25,450 --> 00:17:22,370
local guys who've been there for ages

391
00:17:27,790 --> 00:17:25,460
who they'll perform a right if you want

392
00:17:29,260 --> 00:17:27,800
to write for for yahweh though do yahweh

393
00:17:31,510 --> 00:17:29,270
if you want Ashtaroth did you ask her

394
00:17:32,830 --> 00:17:31,520
out they didn't care as long as you

395
00:17:34,450 --> 00:17:32,840
showed up with the animal you want to

396
00:17:36,670 --> 00:17:34,460
sacrifice and a couple bucks for them

397
00:17:39,610 --> 00:17:36,680
but the Jerusalem Temple really wanted

398
00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:39,620
to focus religion in Jerusalem and the

399
00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:42,650
Kings wanted that too because that they

400
00:17:47,470 --> 00:17:45,170
like that being able to use the power of

401
00:17:49,990 --> 00:17:47,480
the church to back them up and so there

402
00:17:52,330 --> 00:17:50,000
was a campaign starting about 800 BC in

403
00:17:54,010 --> 00:17:52,340
Palestine to try to to bring all the

404
00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:54,020
religious groups center them in

405
00:17:57,730 --> 00:17:55,730
Jerusalem and to get rid of these other

406
00:18:00,910 --> 00:17:57,740
sites that we're causing problems and

407
00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:00,920
that went along so often on with some

408
00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:03,530
success but the fact was they were never

409
00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:06,530
ever ever really able to suppress the

410
00:18:10,930 --> 00:18:08,450
cult of the dead as it existed among the

411
00:18:13,120 --> 00:18:10,940
various families I mean if your parent

412
00:18:15,850 --> 00:18:13,130
passed away you would have us a right

413
00:18:18,970 --> 00:18:15,860
and you would have this this a religious

414
00:18:20,650 --> 00:18:18,980
ceremony called the marzia which was

415
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:20,660
common throughout the whole Near East

416
00:18:25,660 --> 00:18:23,810
and you would drink whatever potion it

417
00:18:27,490 --> 00:18:25,670
was that was provided that was probably

418
00:18:29,740 --> 00:18:27,500
psychoactive a probably included opium

419
00:18:32,980 --> 00:18:29,750
and various mushrooms and you know the

420
00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:32,990
particular recipe didn't matter probably

421
00:18:38,020 --> 00:18:34,250
vary considerably from place to place

422
00:18:40,770 --> 00:18:38,030
and as part of the death ceremony you

423
00:18:43,270 --> 00:18:40,780
would someone or perhaps even these

424
00:18:44,650 --> 00:18:43,280
children would see visions of the

425
00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:44,660
afterlife where they can see the dead

426
00:18:49,990 --> 00:18:47,330
parent and the dead relatives and that

427
00:18:52,690 --> 00:18:50,000
was how that worked but the the

428
00:18:53,860 --> 00:18:52,700
Jerusalem Temple they didn't like that

429
00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:53,870
because they didn't they couldn't

430
00:18:57,280 --> 00:18:55,010
control it they couldn't make any money

431
00:18:59,770 --> 00:18:57,290
off of it it was problem and so they

432
00:19:03,670 --> 00:18:59,780
worked suppress that and it worked to

433
00:19:08,170 --> 00:19:03,680
some extent up until about the time of

434
00:19:10,420 --> 00:19:08,180
the the Babylonian captivity when the

435
00:19:11,980 --> 00:19:10,430
babblings came in took over buddy took

436
00:19:15,910 --> 00:19:11,990
all the elite anyway and care them off

437
00:19:18,010 --> 00:19:15,920
to Babylon for about 50 years the

438
00:19:21,900 --> 00:19:18,020
interesting thing then is that while

439
00:19:24,670 --> 00:19:21,910
they were in Babylon the Hebrew priest

440
00:19:27,070 --> 00:19:24,680
saw how things worked in Babylon and

441
00:19:28,570 --> 00:19:27,080
they like that pretty well because it

442
00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:28,580
was very organized you had a hero

443
00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:30,290
archaea priests you had

444
00:19:34,120 --> 00:19:32,090
one temple and all this and I thought

445
00:19:37,300 --> 00:19:34,130
well you know we could do this back home

446
00:19:40,540 --> 00:19:37,310
too so sure enough 50 years later when

447
00:19:42,700 --> 00:19:40,550
they move back to to to Jerusalem they

448
00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:42,710
more or less kicked everybody out they

449
00:19:47,530 --> 00:19:45,050
took the stuff left over from Moses like

450
00:19:48,460 --> 00:19:47,540
the brazen serpent which was still in

451
00:19:50,470 --> 00:19:48,470
the temple they took it out and

452
00:19:53,890 --> 00:19:50,480
destroyed it and they destroyed anything

453
00:19:56,620 --> 00:19:53,900
that wasn't clearly monotheistic Yahweh

454
00:19:59,140 --> 00:19:56,630
based and then they somehow found this

455
00:20:00,790 --> 00:19:59,150
supposed book you know that told them

456
00:20:03,100 --> 00:20:00,800
that what they had done just now was the

457
00:20:04,690 --> 00:20:03,110
right thing to do and they went on from

458
00:20:07,090 --> 00:20:04,700
there and they continue to try to

459
00:20:10,900 --> 00:20:07,100
suppress these smaller religious groups

460
00:20:12,730 --> 00:20:10,910
outside outside Jerusalem and they had

461
00:20:16,090 --> 00:20:12,740
more or less success there up until

462
00:20:18,850 --> 00:20:16,100
about 200 BC when they actually got

463
00:20:22,750 --> 00:20:18,860
their own Kingdom and once they had a

464
00:20:24,580 --> 00:20:22,760
Jewish King well then they really went

465
00:20:26,290 --> 00:20:24,590
after everybody because they were

466
00:20:29,530 --> 00:20:26,300
determined to get rid of everything that

467
00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:29,540
wasn't Yahweh and the result was that

468
00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:31,930
again all these groups are suppressed

469
00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:34,970
and there was just the one religion up

470
00:20:40,210 --> 00:20:37,850
until Christianity came along now the

471
00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:40,220
problem with Christianity and this is

472
00:20:44,950 --> 00:20:41,930
interesting too if you go back and study

473
00:20:46,420 --> 00:20:44,960
some of the books that are written about

474
00:20:48,790 --> 00:20:46,430
the origins of Christianity you'll find

475
00:20:51,310 --> 00:20:48,800
it it's not really clear exactly when it

476
00:20:53,470 --> 00:20:51,320
started and it appears like the Chisholm

477
00:20:55,330 --> 00:20:53,480
priests were really against Jesus and

478
00:20:57,670 --> 00:20:55,340
his followers and John the Baptist from

479
00:21:00,610 --> 00:20:57,680
the very beginning and that would fit in

480
00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:00,620
with the history that you just painted

481
00:21:06,580 --> 00:21:03,650
there that there was this ongoing battle

482
00:21:10,210 --> 00:21:06,590
for control toward centralization

483
00:21:12,130 --> 00:21:10,220
towards cooperation with other ruling

484
00:21:15,070 --> 00:21:12,140
entities and they didn't like that

485
00:21:16,180 --> 00:21:15,080
diversity and then it comes along I hope

486
00:21:18,250 --> 00:21:16,190
you'll weave into this i'm sure you are

487
00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:18,260
it's a wonderful story history that

488
00:21:23,470 --> 00:21:20,450
you're recounting here but how the Dead

489
00:21:25,810 --> 00:21:23,480
Sea Scrolls come along and and really

490
00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:25,820
substantiate a lot of what the picture

491
00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:28,610
that you're painting about this early

492
00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:31,610
Christian movement not being anything

493
00:21:38,170 --> 00:21:35,090
about Christianity but being much more

494
00:21:39,850 --> 00:21:38,180
about bringing back some of these rights

495
00:21:42,580 --> 00:21:39,860
and bringing back the freedom to

496
00:21:43,660 --> 00:21:42,590
practice their their rights and their

497
00:21:46,180 --> 00:21:43,670
sacraments as

498
00:21:49,540 --> 00:21:46,190
they saw fit which was in conflict with

499
00:21:50,830 --> 00:21:49,550
the Jerusalem church can you I think

500
00:21:52,780 --> 00:21:50,840
that's where you're leading can you fill

501
00:21:56,530 --> 00:21:52,790
in what I'm missing there right yeah

502
00:21:57,790 --> 00:21:56,540
basically they felt that they after than

503
00:21:59,710 --> 00:21:57,800
during the last 200 years they finally

504
00:22:01,390 --> 00:21:59,720
managed to get rid of these guys and

505
00:22:02,980 --> 00:22:01,400
they knew they were still kind of

506
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:02,990
operating kind of in the hinterlands

507
00:22:07,030 --> 00:22:04,610
like Galilee and the places up north

508
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:07,040
they Wed hadn't quite been completely

509
00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:09,530
wiped out but so they're sitting pretty

510
00:22:13,180 --> 00:22:10,850
that they're having to deal with the

511
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:13,190
Romans who are kind of creating problems

512
00:22:18,460 --> 00:22:16,010
but they are very much in control of the

513
00:22:20,970 --> 00:22:18,470
religious rights at least in the

514
00:22:23,380 --> 00:22:20,980
southern part of you know of Palestine

515
00:22:25,300 --> 00:22:23,390
anyway so here there sit and all sudden

516
00:22:26,620 --> 00:22:25,310
this guy shows up and he starts

517
00:22:28,120 --> 00:22:26,630
preaching the stuff about the cult of

518
00:22:29,380 --> 00:22:28,130
dead and it's kind of like you could

519
00:22:32,170 --> 00:22:29,390
just see the priest standing at the

520
00:22:35,620 --> 00:22:32,180
temple wall fame Jesus Christ is he back

521
00:22:37,540 --> 00:22:35,630
again because here's these same things

522
00:22:39,340 --> 00:22:37,550
they work so hard to suppress and here's

523
00:22:41,380 --> 00:22:39,350
this guy who's become a popular figure

524
00:22:43,330 --> 00:22:41,390
and he's preaching the same stuff but

525
00:22:44,950 --> 00:22:43,340
they thought they'd gotten rid of like I

526
00:22:46,540 --> 00:22:44,960
imagine they were just really irritated

527
00:22:48,970 --> 00:22:46,550
and wanted to get rid of him as soon as

528
00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:48,980
possible well and it works both ways to

529
00:22:53,410 --> 00:22:51,170
I mean the evidence that we have suggest

530
00:22:57,190 --> 00:22:53,420
that he was really irritated that those

531
00:22:58,690 --> 00:22:57,200
folks who were against Jerusalem and the

532
00:23:00,670 --> 00:22:58,700
control of the church were really

533
00:23:02,620 --> 00:23:00,680
irritated too because these practices

534
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:02,630
were very important to them so there's a

535
00:23:06,850 --> 00:23:05,330
genuine conflict yeah yeah I'm sure they

536
00:23:09,610 --> 00:23:06,860
were because these people have been

537
00:23:12,940 --> 00:23:09,620
literally been fighting for 800 years at

538
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:12,950
least 800 years if we follow the Old

539
00:23:17,860 --> 00:23:16,010
Testament chronology of it yeah and they

540
00:23:19,150 --> 00:23:17,870
and the people in Jerusalem Temple had

541
00:23:21,330 --> 00:23:19,160
thought they'd won it was all over with

542
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:21,340
it suddenly here these guys again and

543
00:23:26,050 --> 00:23:23,330
they tried everything they could and

544
00:23:28,450 --> 00:23:26,060
they treated Christianity as if it were

545
00:23:31,540 --> 00:23:28,460
heresy because in that in their minds

546
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:31,550
that's what it was where in fact maybe

547
00:23:34,660 --> 00:23:33,050
they were the heresy they're the ones

548
00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:34,670
who went away from what religion had

549
00:23:38,050 --> 00:23:36,530
been twelve hundred years earlier and if

550
00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:38,060
you want to look at that way 60 both

551
00:23:40,930 --> 00:23:39,290
points of view how was kind of

552
00:23:42,820 --> 00:23:40,940
problematic right and we shouldn't

553
00:23:45,490 --> 00:23:42,830
really even call it Christianity at this

554
00:23:47,860 --> 00:23:45,500
point because this group out in the

555
00:23:51,660 --> 00:23:47,870
hinterlands is really calling for what

556
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:51,670
they believe is a return to the true

557
00:23:57,010 --> 00:23:54,170
Judaism that that they've always known

558
00:23:59,140 --> 00:23:57,020
right right the Judaism

559
00:24:01,840 --> 00:23:59,150
Bush by Moses this is the mosaic thing

560
00:24:04,450 --> 00:24:01,850
and you see little traces of this two in

561
00:24:06,700 --> 00:24:04,460
the first early Christian books be

562
00:24:09,430 --> 00:24:06,710
written for example an axe they make a

563
00:24:12,820 --> 00:24:09,440
great point of saying that we are

564
00:24:14,230 --> 00:24:12,830
followers of Moses Moses was considered

565
00:24:16,330 --> 00:24:14,240
the most important person and we're

566
00:24:18,670 --> 00:24:16,340
simply going back to mosaic stuff and

567
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:18,680
you guys the problem there's a line of

568
00:24:22,870 --> 00:24:21,050
that I think I've I've adapted as

569
00:24:24,430 --> 00:24:22,880
slightly but there's a Linus's pretty

570
00:24:25,780 --> 00:24:24,440
much that in the book of Acts no we're

571
00:24:28,060 --> 00:24:25,790
just taking religion back to what it was

572
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:28,070
the time of Moses and and you guys are

573
00:24:34,570 --> 00:24:32,570
the problem so if that is the history

574
00:24:36,670 --> 00:24:34,580
and there's some controversy there but I

575
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:36,680
think as your book points out and anyone

576
00:24:42,340 --> 00:24:39,050
who reads your book will see a lot of

577
00:24:43,810 --> 00:24:42,350
references to sources that they can

578
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:43,820
follow up on and come to their own

579
00:24:49,030 --> 00:24:45,890
conclusions but you pray a pretty

580
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:49,040
convincing story of that being the case

581
00:24:55,930 --> 00:24:52,730
bring us up to the present where some of

582
00:24:58,420 --> 00:24:55,940
these rites and rituals as you pause it

583
00:25:00,670 --> 00:24:58,430
in your book remain with us today and

584
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:00,680
they're deeply embedded in in the

585
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:03,890
symbolism and the sacraments of modern

586
00:25:08,050 --> 00:25:06,410
Christianity and Judaism that people

587
00:25:11,350 --> 00:25:08,060
would be familiar with tell us a little

588
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:11,360
bit about that okay what what perhaps

589
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:13,610
the greatest irony of all in my mind is

590
00:25:18,700 --> 00:25:16,250
that once the Christian Church got

591
00:25:21,790 --> 00:25:18,710
established and once it was settled in

592
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:21,800
Rome and hand or and was very actively

593
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:24,050
recruiting people suddenly they began

594
00:25:27,820 --> 00:25:25,610
acting just like the Jerusalem Temple

595
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:27,830
had done they began consolidating power

596
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:30,650
they began lining up their lines of

597
00:25:35,020 --> 00:25:32,690
power with the Roman authorities and

598
00:25:37,810 --> 00:25:35,030
they got to a point eventually when they

599
00:25:39,130 --> 00:25:37,820
decided that these rights that they was

600
00:25:41,860 --> 00:25:39,140
what they were established on we're

601
00:25:44,850 --> 00:25:41,870
becoming a problem because the issue is

602
00:25:47,890 --> 00:25:44,860
if you're a person who's had a vision of

603
00:25:51,130 --> 00:25:47,900
the Christ and you have a teaching that

604
00:25:53,500 --> 00:25:51,140
can use by way of this mushrooms that

605
00:25:55,210 --> 00:25:53,510
you've eaten you believe your vision is

606
00:25:58,570 --> 00:25:55,220
more important than anything that any of

607
00:26:00,130 --> 00:25:58,580
the priests say and so fairly soon

608
00:26:01,930 --> 00:26:00,140
within after the establishment of

609
00:26:04,120 --> 00:26:01,940
Christianity that the priest began

610
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:04,130
working to get rid of this and this is

611
00:26:07,630 --> 00:26:06,050
where they this is how they started yet

612
00:26:09,010 --> 00:26:07,640
now they were turning the opposite

613
00:26:10,259 --> 00:26:09,020
direction but now that they had their

614
00:26:11,399 --> 00:26:10,269
hands on the

615
00:26:13,619 --> 00:26:11,409
the power they were going to take

616
00:26:14,940 --> 00:26:13,629
control and so for that's several

617
00:26:18,919 --> 00:26:14,950
hundred years you see the church

618
00:26:21,089 --> 00:26:18,929
struggling to suppress these rights and

619
00:26:22,919 --> 00:26:21,099
driving people out of the catacombs

620
00:26:24,869 --> 00:26:22,929
closing up the catacombs doing

621
00:26:27,539 --> 00:26:24,879
everything can to suppress the soul cult

622
00:26:30,449 --> 00:26:27,549
of the dead and then of course around

623
00:26:32,849 --> 00:26:30,459
six hundred they made all the other

624
00:26:35,249 --> 00:26:32,859
religions besides Christianity illegal

625
00:26:37,859 --> 00:26:35,259
and they had the full force and power of

626
00:26:40,589 --> 00:26:37,869
the Roman Empire and the Roman armies to

627
00:26:44,039 --> 00:26:40,599
to enforce that and people had to go

628
00:26:46,919 --> 00:26:44,049
into hiding all across Europe in Egypt

629
00:26:49,589 --> 00:26:46,929
you have the NAG Hammadi documents being

630
00:26:52,499 --> 00:26:49,599
buried out in the desert and all these

631
00:26:54,180 --> 00:26:52,509
different smaller groups among the celts

632
00:26:56,729 --> 00:26:54,190
and others on the edges of the empire

633
00:26:58,619 --> 00:26:56,739
they all had to go underground I'll tell

634
00:27:01,829 --> 00:26:58,629
you one small piece that really caught

635
00:27:03,449 --> 00:27:01,839
my attention because I was raised in the

636
00:27:05,579 --> 00:27:03,459
Greek Orthodox Church in the Greek

637
00:27:09,029 --> 00:27:05,589
Orthodox tradition and they have this

638
00:27:11,219 --> 00:27:09,039
practice of anointing with oil and once

639
00:27:12,959 --> 00:27:11,229
a year I forget what it is they come and

640
00:27:16,169 --> 00:27:12,969
they dip their thumb a little bit of oil

641
00:27:18,060 --> 00:27:16,179
and they put it on your body and your

642
00:27:19,949 --> 00:27:18,070
book reminded me that that's really

643
00:27:22,709 --> 00:27:19,959
something that's kind of unique to the

644
00:27:25,129 --> 00:27:22,719
to the Orthodox tradition it's been kind

645
00:27:28,109 --> 00:27:25,139
of whittled out of mainstream

646
00:27:31,859 --> 00:27:28,119
Christianity but it has its origins way

647
00:27:37,249 --> 00:27:31,869
way back and it's deeply tied into this

648
00:27:40,319 --> 00:27:37,259
idea of of sacred perhaps hallucinogenic

649
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:40,329
substances can you maybe tell us about

650
00:27:46,949 --> 00:27:43,450
anointing of anointing how that's woven

651
00:27:49,619 --> 00:27:46,959
in and what the true origin that is well

652
00:27:51,690 --> 00:27:49,629
let me say first of all that I was

653
00:27:53,430 --> 00:27:51,700
raised Southern Baptist and so the whole

654
00:27:56,940 --> 00:27:53,440
idea about anointing just seems to me

655
00:27:58,409 --> 00:27:56,950
very I just don't understand it because

656
00:28:00,839 --> 00:27:58,419
it was never part of my religious

657
00:28:04,049 --> 00:28:00,849
upbringing at all the Baptist don't know

658
00:28:05,519 --> 00:28:04,059
anybody okay in fact they barely have a

659
00:28:06,919 --> 00:28:05,529
communion if you have communion you have

660
00:28:09,629 --> 00:28:06,929
grape juice you don't even get wine

661
00:28:12,029 --> 00:28:09,639
juice and crackers is that you get the

662
00:28:13,919 --> 00:28:12,039
communion but anyway when I first

663
00:28:15,930 --> 00:28:13,929
started writing this book I kept running

664
00:28:19,079 --> 00:28:15,940
across his reference to anointing all

665
00:28:20,819 --> 00:28:19,089
over the place I thought ended there any

666
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:20,829
Christians anoint and I just couldn't

667
00:28:23,700 --> 00:28:22,450
wrap my mind around it but then as i've

668
00:28:26,490 --> 00:28:23,710
been looking i kept finding

669
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:26,500
all this stuff in fact apparently early

670
00:28:31,049 --> 00:28:28,690
on in the Christian Church they would

671
00:28:32,820 --> 00:28:31,059
anoint prep for your whole body in fact

672
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:32,830
this is one passage I think I've put on

673
00:28:37,860 --> 00:28:34,570
my blog I found where they talked about

674
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:37,870
men and women and getting anointed from

675
00:28:42,269 --> 00:28:40,210
head to foot and this one guy in

676
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:42,279
particular even had his teeth anointed

677
00:28:47,610 --> 00:28:45,370
which I thought was really strange but

678
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:47,620
the whole idea was to drive out these

679
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:49,450
evil spirits that were inside your body

680
00:28:54,570 --> 00:28:51,970
and by then that's what you accomplished

681
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:54,580
by putting this anointing oil on and

682
00:29:00,060 --> 00:28:57,250
this anointing oil probably had a

683
00:29:03,389 --> 00:29:00,070
variety of hallucinogens if you look at

684
00:29:06,389 --> 00:29:03,399
that one book the golden half that was

685
00:29:09,180 --> 00:29:06,399
the Roman novel a guy and their

686
00:29:11,730 --> 00:29:09,190
describes a pagan Rite where he gets

687
00:29:14,190 --> 00:29:11,740
anointed and he says if he felt like his

688
00:29:16,260 --> 00:29:14,200
whole body was put on fire because it

689
00:29:17,909 --> 00:29:16,270
was so strong I imagine the anointing

690
00:29:20,789 --> 00:29:17,919
that the Christians are the Christians

691
00:29:22,049 --> 00:29:20,799
it probably had very similar qualities

692
00:29:25,139 --> 00:29:22,059
you probably had this burning sensation

693
00:29:26,940 --> 00:29:25,149
on all of your skin and this sense of

694
00:29:29,220 --> 00:29:26,950
all these evil spirits being driven out

695
00:29:32,159 --> 00:29:29,230
by this sacred fire that was associated

696
00:29:34,110 --> 00:29:32,169
with the Holy Spirit and you're quite

697
00:29:35,789 --> 00:29:34,120
right the anointing continued in the

698
00:29:39,060 --> 00:29:35,799
Orthodox Church to a much greater degree

699
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:39,070
than it did in the Roman Church because

700
00:29:44,490 --> 00:29:42,250
I think as time went on they just felt

701
00:29:46,590 --> 00:29:44,500
it was safer to get away from that does

702
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:46,600
that make a cent absolutely so again

703
00:29:51,090 --> 00:29:49,330
it's one of these cases where and again

704
00:29:55,110 --> 00:29:51,100
you point out in the book some strong

705
00:29:57,899 --> 00:29:55,120
evidence to suggest that this ritual

706
00:30:00,029 --> 00:29:57,909
that still carried on today in thousands

707
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:00,039
and thousands of churches has its

708
00:30:05,580 --> 00:30:02,370
origins with some kind of other

709
00:30:08,580 --> 00:30:05,590
psychoactive substance that is all in

710
00:30:11,130 --> 00:30:08,590
through time been disjointed from the

711
00:30:12,810 --> 00:30:11,140
original purpose of it but we have to go

712
00:30:14,039 --> 00:30:12,820
back and try and recreate that history

713
00:30:16,500 --> 00:30:14,049
which is what you do in your book and

714
00:30:19,620 --> 00:30:16,510
it's fascinating thank you thank you I

715
00:30:22,710 --> 00:30:19,630
it's kind of a labor of love that's gone

716
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:22,720
on for a long long time and I feel I've

717
00:30:27,630 --> 00:30:25,090
come up with a very good theory of how

718
00:30:30,149 --> 00:30:27,640
Krishna came to existence and I'm

719
00:30:31,980 --> 00:30:30,159
surprised more people aren't jumping on

720
00:30:34,230 --> 00:30:31,990
this and saying yeah this is this is the

721
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:34,240
way things really began it's not this

722
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:36,970
story about these prophets traveling all

723
00:30:39,990 --> 00:30:37,570
the places

724
00:30:42,090 --> 00:30:40,000
being persecuted in and converting

725
00:30:44,250 --> 00:30:42,100
people it's not so much data but but how

726
00:30:46,020 --> 00:30:44,260
they did it they did it by way of these

727
00:30:48,210 --> 00:30:46,030
rights were you anointed people these

728
00:30:51,270 --> 00:30:48,220
special oils and they had these these

729
00:30:53,460 --> 00:30:51,280
communion with these various substances

730
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:53,470
they were part of the Eucharist and and

731
00:30:56,820 --> 00:30:55,330
those things got pushed out of

732
00:30:59,340 --> 00:30:56,830
Christianity within the first couple

733
00:31:02,520 --> 00:30:59,350
hundred years and they went just a plain

734
00:31:06,540 --> 00:31:02,530
bread and playing wine and oils that

735
00:31:08,700 --> 00:31:06,550
were just no different from Wesson oil I

736
00:31:10,260 --> 00:31:08,710
guess practically anymore I suppose I

737
00:31:12,180 --> 00:31:10,270
suppose today a Catholic priest goes

738
00:31:14,340 --> 00:31:12,190
down the shopping bag at your our

739
00:31:16,350 --> 00:31:14,350
Western oil use that annoying people for

740
00:31:19,910 --> 00:31:16,360
all the difference to make right right

741
00:31:23,070 --> 00:31:19,920
okay but I think we've kind of come to

742
00:31:26,070 --> 00:31:23,080
the the junction point here the rub if

743
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:26,080
you will and that's that so great why

744
00:31:30,990 --> 00:31:28,810
aren't more people jumping on this why

745
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:31,000
aren't more scholars trying to connect

746
00:31:37,170 --> 00:31:34,450
this and I feel like there's an elephant

747
00:31:39,780 --> 00:31:37,180
in the room here and that we have to

748
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:39,790
deal with it I mean you are an atheist

749
00:31:43,650 --> 00:31:42,130
and pretty much for hardcore atheist if

750
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:43,660
there is such a thing but you're in

751
00:31:47,970 --> 00:31:45,610
atheist groups and you publish atheist

752
00:31:50,130 --> 00:31:47,980
books and all that then that has nothing

753
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:50,140
to do with this masterful job you've

754
00:31:55,500 --> 00:31:52,690
done of weaving together this history

755
00:31:58,680 --> 00:31:55,510
but it does make me wonder are you

756
00:32:03,650 --> 00:31:58,690
coming at this from a biased perspective

757
00:32:06,930 --> 00:32:03,660
and are you trying to jam all of these

758
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:06,940
accounts back into this we're all

759
00:32:12,270 --> 00:32:09,250
biological robots so there couldn't be

760
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:12,280
any possibility of life after death

761
00:32:18,650 --> 00:32:15,490
perspective the question is are these

762
00:32:21,750 --> 00:32:18,660
people using hallucinogenics to

763
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:21,760
experience something real or are they

764
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:25,090
using hallucinogenics and having a

765
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:28,890
brain-based experience that is a

766
00:32:34,050 --> 00:32:31,810
hallucination well that's that's a good

767
00:32:36,810 --> 00:32:34,060
question but it's it's a question that

768
00:32:41,370 --> 00:32:36,820
I've I feel I'm not qualified to answer

769
00:32:44,820 --> 00:32:41,380
I mean it was very nice it's at the

770
00:32:48,420 --> 00:32:44,830
center it's at the center of the book

771
00:32:50,770 --> 00:32:48,430
because I your book can be a totally

772
00:32:52,810 --> 00:32:50,780
true and factual

773
00:32:54,190 --> 00:32:52,820
but it doesn't get at this this question

774
00:32:55,690 --> 00:32:54,200
you know I recently had a chance to

775
00:32:57,550 --> 00:32:55,700
interview just recently this guy this

776
00:32:59,860 --> 00:32:57,560
directly relates to what we're talking

777
00:33:01,990 --> 00:32:59,870
about his name is talaat Phillips the

778
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:02,000
title of his book is the electric jeezus

779
00:33:08,100 --> 00:33:04,730
he's this political activist who was an

780
00:33:10,780 --> 00:33:08,110
atheist and then went on this rather

781
00:33:13,630 --> 00:33:10,790
amazing kind of journey using all sorts

782
00:33:17,110 --> 00:33:13,640
of different hallucinogenic drugs and

783
00:33:19,210 --> 00:33:17,120
ayahuasca and dmt and mushrooms and all

784
00:33:22,450 --> 00:33:19,220
the rest of this and he becomes this

785
00:33:24,790 --> 00:33:22,460
kind of modern-day Gnostic who's

786
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:24,800
convinced like thousands of other people

787
00:33:31,090 --> 00:33:26,930
are through their personal existence

788
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:31,100
that he is accessing these other realms

789
00:33:35,410 --> 00:33:33,050
and that there's a reality to these

790
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:35,420
other realms so this is modern this is

791
00:33:40,630 --> 00:33:38,450
today how do we read that story into

792
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:40,640
your story the way that I would read it

793
00:33:46,780 --> 00:33:43,610
is just taking it at face value is that

794
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:46,790
there is something real to these realms

795
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:49,970
and these folks are accessing it and it

796
00:33:56,340 --> 00:33:53,090
puts a totally different spin on the

797
00:33:58,840 --> 00:33:56,350
creation of these religions and the

798
00:34:01,480 --> 00:33:58,850
perpetuation of these religions is that

799
00:34:04,630 --> 00:34:01,490
they were really getting something real

800
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:04,640
out of the experience not just a trip

801
00:34:11,950 --> 00:34:08,090
and a fake experience well my hope and

802
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:11,960
if my book has any success all in

803
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:15,290
ultimately my hope is that the existing

804
00:34:19,659 --> 00:34:17,690
religious groups whether they're already

805
00:34:21,310 --> 00:34:19,669
established ones are newly formed ones

806
00:34:22,810 --> 00:34:21,320
or if you call the new age groups or

807
00:34:24,700 --> 00:34:22,820
whatever I think they need to start

808
00:34:26,710 --> 00:34:24,710
seriously thinking about trying these

809
00:34:29,409 --> 00:34:26,720
things again getting back into a

810
00:34:32,350 --> 00:34:29,419
spiritual connection using these various

811
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:32,360
religions and and see if they can make

812
00:34:35,889 --> 00:34:33,770
them work and if they improve their

813
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:35,899
religious experience because we got to

814
00:34:39,399 --> 00:34:37,330
get away from this world where

815
00:34:40,870 --> 00:34:39,409
everything you decide if you're

816
00:34:42,730 --> 00:34:40,880
religious or not based on what your

817
00:34:44,620 --> 00:34:42,740
standards on abortion or you or you

818
00:34:46,270 --> 00:34:44,630
decide what I what your religion is

819
00:34:48,669 --> 00:34:46,280
based on how you feel about gun

820
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:48,679
ownership or or any of a dozen other

821
00:34:52,690 --> 00:34:50,210
issues that are pressed as being

822
00:34:55,180 --> 00:34:52,700
religious these days and get back to

823
00:34:56,950 --> 00:34:55,190
some national direct experience of the

824
00:34:59,080 --> 00:34:56,960
divine in it and I think this is

825
00:35:01,900 --> 00:34:59,090
something that the church has gotten so

826
00:35:04,450 --> 00:35:01,910
far away from now you know that it's got

827
00:35:07,660 --> 00:35:04,460
ridiculous and they need to to step up

828
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:07,670
and do this and not quit and quit this

829
00:35:11,980 --> 00:35:09,530
stuff about you know and it's nice if

830
00:35:13,930 --> 00:35:11,990
your church has just you know food to

831
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:13,940
the poor has a soup kitchen it's nice if

832
00:35:17,890 --> 00:35:16,010
your church helps support on when

833
00:35:20,109 --> 00:35:17,900
mothers or any of these other dozens of

834
00:35:21,310 --> 00:35:20,119
different social issues but if people

835
00:35:23,500 --> 00:35:21,320
are going to your church and they're not

836
00:35:25,930 --> 00:35:23,510
having experienced the divine then what

837
00:35:28,630 --> 00:35:25,940
are you good for I hear you and as a

838
00:35:30,910 --> 00:35:28,640
matter of fact to lot Phillip so I just

839
00:35:33,790 --> 00:35:30,920
talked about he's directly involved in a

840
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:33,800
church in that does just that they use

841
00:35:39,550 --> 00:35:36,290
ayahuasca some derivative of ayahuasca

842
00:35:42,250 --> 00:35:39,560
which is of course DMT is the

843
00:35:44,710 --> 00:35:42,260
psychoactive element in that but to have

844
00:35:48,250 --> 00:35:44,720
this direct religious Christian

845
00:35:50,290 --> 00:35:48,260
experience that then they work into it's

846
00:35:52,750 --> 00:35:50,300
it's fundamental to their religion saw I

847
00:35:54,820 --> 00:35:52,760
don't know if hallucinogenics are the

848
00:35:56,589 --> 00:35:54,830
answer but I think that it's certainly

849
00:35:59,079 --> 00:35:56,599
what you're what you're positing there

850
00:36:02,050 --> 00:35:59,089
or what you're putting forth makes a ton

851
00:36:04,329 --> 00:36:02,060
of sense yeah I'm sorry but I did want

852
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:04,339
to push a tiny bit further I understand

853
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:05,930
your position I think that's a fair one

854
00:36:10,089 --> 00:36:08,450
to say you've done a fantastic job

855
00:36:12,250 --> 00:36:10,099
you've done your work so you can sit

856
00:36:14,500 --> 00:36:12,260
back and say okay it's for other people

857
00:36:16,750 --> 00:36:14,510
to pick it up and push it this way or

858
00:36:20,470 --> 00:36:16,760
push it that way but I do again think

859
00:36:22,540 --> 00:36:20,480
that this issue of consciousness

860
00:36:24,550 --> 00:36:22,550
surviving death is fundamental to

861
00:36:27,010 --> 00:36:24,560
understanding this history you know and

862
00:36:31,650 --> 00:36:27,020
another former guest we've had on this

863
00:36:34,720 --> 00:36:31,660
show is critical care physician cornell

864
00:36:38,290 --> 00:36:34,730
university professor and dr. of

865
00:36:40,570 --> 00:36:38,300
resuscitation dr. Sam ponyo and this is

866
00:36:42,370 --> 00:36:40,580
a guy who studied cardiac arrest

867
00:36:44,890 --> 00:36:42,380
patients for I don't know 10 20 years

868
00:36:46,630 --> 00:36:44,900
and has finally come around to the

869
00:36:49,060 --> 00:36:46,640
conclusion that every other near-death

870
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:49,070
experience researcher has come around to

871
00:36:56,050 --> 00:36:51,530
and that is that consciousness survives

872
00:36:57,370 --> 00:36:56,060
death so your book as well as these

873
00:37:00,730 --> 00:36:57,380
religions that we're talking about

874
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:00,740
Christianity Judaism Islam are embedded

875
00:37:05,349 --> 00:37:03,290
in this culture that kind of has this

876
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:05,359
schizophrenia because on one hand we

877
00:37:09,339 --> 00:37:07,130
have science saying no no no no there

878
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:09,349
can't be anything after death there

879
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:11,450
cannot be survival of consciousness and

880
00:37:17,870 --> 00:37:14,410
then you have these religions that just

881
00:37:19,790 --> 00:37:17,880
blindly say oh yeah there's

882
00:37:22,250 --> 00:37:19,800
there's some truth to that and this is

883
00:37:24,470 --> 00:37:22,260
what it is it's only our way and now we

884
00:37:26,180 --> 00:37:24,480
have science coming in between and

885
00:37:29,030 --> 00:37:26,190
saying well I don't know about what

886
00:37:30,710 --> 00:37:29,040
either side of you're saying but our

887
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:30,720
evidence suggests that there is a

888
00:37:36,500 --> 00:37:33,810
reality to survival of consciousness

889
00:37:39,530 --> 00:37:36,510
there is a reality to life after death

890
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:39,540
if you will and I don't know how we're

891
00:37:44,270 --> 00:37:41,490
going to be able to sort all that out

892
00:37:45,860 --> 00:37:44,280
and then go back and reclaim our history

893
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:45,870
it seems to be almost too big of a

894
00:37:53,270 --> 00:37:49,530
challenge yeah I'm kind of at a loss to

895
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:53,280
to know exactly what Thresh to take and

896
00:37:57,110 --> 00:37:54,690
I think I've painted a pretty good

897
00:37:59,000 --> 00:37:57,120
picture of where religions came from but

898
00:38:00,950 --> 00:37:59,010
the real challenge is trying to figure

899
00:38:02,810 --> 00:38:00,960
out which direction religions go into

900
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:02,820
the future are they going to continue

901
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:05,130
with these political Crusades constantly

902
00:38:08,690 --> 00:38:07,170
or are they are they actually going to

903
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:08,700
do something that actually helps

904
00:38:16,070 --> 00:38:12,090
somebody for a change I just wish I knew

905
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:16,080
what why I can do except try to get

906
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:18,330
people a better sense of where they came

907
00:38:23,630 --> 00:38:21,930
from and what it was the founders of

908
00:38:26,090 --> 00:38:23,640
their religions actually did and

909
00:38:29,180 --> 00:38:26,100
speaking here to also is la meeeeee I

910
00:38:31,970 --> 00:38:29,190
didn't go into that at all in my in my

911
00:38:34,190 --> 00:38:31,980
book but there I found some interesting

912
00:38:36,590 --> 00:38:34,200
stuff there too that I think could be

913
00:38:39,380 --> 00:38:36,600
explored then there's all strange stuff

914
00:38:43,100 --> 00:38:39,390
in Islam to has put that way but anyway

915
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:43,110
no there's a there's certainly a role to

916
00:38:47,450 --> 00:38:45,690
be played by religious belief and if it

917
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:47,460
turns out that there is life after death

918
00:38:50,660 --> 00:38:49,050
well that would be a wonderful thing too

919
00:38:51,770 --> 00:38:50,670
but that's not what the current churches

920
00:38:53,450 --> 00:38:51,780
are doing this they hope there's life

921
00:38:54,620 --> 00:38:53,460
after death why you can discuss it and

922
00:38:57,560 --> 00:38:54,630
then they just go on with their merry

923
00:38:59,750 --> 00:38:57,570
way with their weather brick bake sales

924
00:39:01,820 --> 00:38:59,760
or whatever you know I I guess I don't

925
00:39:04,780 --> 00:39:01,830
understand that fair enough so the book

926
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:04,790
again is from the body of the gods

927
00:39:11,180 --> 00:39:08,130
psychoactive plants and the cults of the

928
00:39:13,070 --> 00:39:11,190
dead Earl if i could i just wanted to

929
00:39:15,980 --> 00:39:13,080
mention you have a couple of other blogs

930
00:39:18,140 --> 00:39:15,990
that you maintain with some interesting

931
00:39:20,270 --> 00:39:18,150
little tidbits that i've pulled out i

932
00:39:22,130 --> 00:39:20,280
want to just touch on a couple they

933
00:39:23,300 --> 00:39:22,140
don't really relate directly to what

934
00:39:26,170 --> 00:39:23,310
we've talked about it found them

935
00:39:28,990 --> 00:39:26,180
fascinating one is this account of

936
00:39:31,670 --> 00:39:29,000
Sigmund Freud and one of his children

937
00:39:34,329 --> 00:39:31,680
talking about going with their far

938
00:39:37,190 --> 00:39:34,339
they're for a session of gathering

939
00:39:40,190 --> 00:39:37,200
psychoactive mushrooms in the forest

940
00:39:42,339 --> 00:39:40,200
tell us about that well it was really

941
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:42,349
strange but back when I first began

942
00:39:48,890 --> 00:39:46,290
reading about a Manitou muscaria

943
00:39:50,569 --> 00:39:48,900
mushrooms and where they grow and this

944
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:50,579
sort of thing now these are the

945
00:39:54,380 --> 00:39:52,050
mushrooms that are associated with

946
00:39:56,569 --> 00:39:54,390
Christmas their leg grow under Christmas

947
00:39:59,390 --> 00:39:56,579
trees they're brightly red and they grow

948
00:40:00,890 --> 00:39:59,400
in that area in Germany and other in

949
00:40:03,290 --> 00:40:00,900
Europe and other places right is that

950
00:40:04,819 --> 00:40:03,300
the mushroom right they pretty much grow

951
00:40:07,690 --> 00:40:04,829
at high altitudes in the mountains but

952
00:40:10,670 --> 00:40:07,700
they can be in Germany or the Pyrenees

953
00:40:12,020 --> 00:40:10,680
any high altitude it has the right kind

954
00:40:13,549 --> 00:40:12,030
of trees which are basically I think

955
00:40:16,190 --> 00:40:13,559
cedar and a couple other varieties that

956
00:40:18,109 --> 00:40:16,200
are going to grow and also you can find

957
00:40:19,730 --> 00:40:18,119
big often grow where a tree has died

958
00:40:21,260 --> 00:40:19,740
because that's where the fairy rings

959
00:40:23,859 --> 00:40:21,270
come from we actually see a ring of

960
00:40:26,210 --> 00:40:23,869
mushrooms where a dead tree used to be

961
00:40:28,069 --> 00:40:26,220
but yeah the Imagine muscari are a

962
00:40:30,410 --> 00:40:28,079
bright red or bright yellow and they had

963
00:40:33,410 --> 00:40:30,420
these little white spots on their pretty

964
00:40:36,170 --> 00:40:33,420
distinctive anyway I was reading this

965
00:40:38,599 --> 00:40:36,180
book about a woman had written a book

966
00:40:41,150 --> 00:40:38,609
about the Freud archives and she had a

967
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:41,160
cold in there where she quoted a Ford

968
00:40:46,730 --> 00:40:45,210
son his memoir and in there he described

969
00:40:48,319 --> 00:40:46,740
his father taking him out in the woods

970
00:40:50,839 --> 00:40:48,329
to look for these amenta muscaria

971
00:40:53,270 --> 00:40:50,849
mushrooms and I'm like what this is not

972
00:40:56,030 --> 00:40:53,280
something I heard of it in reading about

973
00:40:57,380 --> 00:40:56,040
Freud or any of his life and so I went

974
00:40:59,839 --> 00:40:57,390
back to the original source and read

975
00:41:02,809 --> 00:40:59,849
martin Freud's memoir sure enough he

976
00:41:04,849 --> 00:41:02,819
describes his father Sigmund Freud

977
00:41:06,770 --> 00:41:04,859
taking him and his brothers and sisters

978
00:41:10,220 --> 00:41:06,780
out into the woods in the mountains and

979
00:41:13,430 --> 00:41:10,230
Alps and hunting for these red and white

980
00:41:14,809 --> 00:41:13,440
mushrooms and it's pretty clear that's

981
00:41:17,270 --> 00:41:14,819
what they're looking for except that

982
00:41:18,530 --> 00:41:17,280
Freud was kind of deceiving them too

983
00:41:19,849 --> 00:41:18,540
because he's saying yeah we're looking

984
00:41:21,410 --> 00:41:19,859
for these red and white mushrooms but

985
00:41:24,410 --> 00:41:21,420
we're not hate those were these other

986
00:41:25,700 --> 00:41:24,420
mushrooms that grow nearby and so he had

987
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:25,710
the kids looking for these red and white

988
00:41:29,510 --> 00:41:27,930
mushrooms I'm sure when he found them

989
00:41:31,220 --> 00:41:29,520
he'd remember where their little patch

990
00:41:32,270 --> 00:41:31,230
was and then come back later to get them

991
00:41:34,819 --> 00:41:32,280
but he had them out there looking

992
00:41:36,230 --> 00:41:34,829
actually for these edible mushrooms the

993
00:41:38,720 --> 00:41:36,240
problem is the end of emotions I don't

994
00:41:41,210 --> 00:41:38,730
think growing the same Norman in the

995
00:41:42,770 --> 00:41:41,220
same area that the managers grow so that

996
00:41:45,230 --> 00:41:42,780
whole story doesn't make any sense to me

997
00:41:47,450 --> 00:41:45,240
but anyway I wrote

998
00:41:49,930 --> 00:41:47,460
an essay about this and put it in my

999
00:41:52,420 --> 00:41:49,940
book I published some years ago called

1000
00:41:54,859 --> 00:41:52,430
libraries in the age of mediocrity and

1001
00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:54,869
most of the book deals with the

1002
00:41:59,600 --> 00:41:57,330
censorship issues and libraries and and

1003
00:42:02,120 --> 00:41:59,610
libertarian ideas but there was that one

1004
00:42:03,950 --> 00:42:02,130
chapter on Freudian and the funny part

1005
00:42:05,690 --> 00:42:03,960
is everybody who read the book said oh

1006
00:42:09,290 --> 00:42:05,700
yeah that book was really good but that

1007
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:09,300
are contrary that was just weird and

1008
00:42:12,170 --> 00:42:11,010
it's like you know and that's what

1009
00:42:13,700 --> 00:42:12,180
that's weird but we're gonna ignore that

1010
00:42:15,620 --> 00:42:13,710
for right I was like no one wanted to

1011
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:15,630
hear it and the fact is I don't think

1012
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:17,850
even after you know more than a decade

1013
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:21,570
that anybody in the psychology field has

1014
00:42:25,730 --> 00:42:23,850
looked at at why store seem to even care

1015
00:42:28,700 --> 00:42:25,740
I don't think the people who are writing

1016
00:42:31,190 --> 00:42:28,710
biographies are for today even are aware

1017
00:42:33,590 --> 00:42:31,200
that I've said anything well it's it's

1018
00:42:35,720 --> 00:42:33,600
just this taboo and I think you know as

1019
00:42:37,430 --> 00:42:35,730
you quote in the book terence mckenna

1020
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:37,440
has probably done more than anyone else

1021
00:42:42,170 --> 00:42:39,330
or did more than anyone else while he

1022
00:42:43,910 --> 00:42:42,180
was alive and just kind of laying out

1023
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:43,920
how obvious this is i mean these people

1024
00:42:48,590 --> 00:42:46,170
are out there certainly not Freud as a

1025
00:42:50,540 --> 00:42:48,600
as a modern but ancient people were out

1026
00:42:52,910 --> 00:42:50,550
there eating everything they could you

1027
00:42:55,609 --> 00:42:52,920
know their porridge in through Andy why

1028
00:42:59,599 --> 00:42:55,619
would they not come across these

1029
00:43:00,980 --> 00:42:59,609
substances and use them and then given

1030
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:00,990
that these substances are creating these

1031
00:43:04,790 --> 00:43:02,970
amazing experiences and maybe they're

1032
00:43:07,099 --> 00:43:04,800
all brain-based like you think or maybe

1033
00:43:09,470 --> 00:43:07,109
they truly are allowing these people to

1034
00:43:13,359 --> 00:43:09,480
access other realms like I think either

1035
00:43:16,340 --> 00:43:13,369
way we seem to be bound and determined

1036
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:16,350
to not include that in our history and

1037
00:43:20,930 --> 00:43:18,450
and paint this narrative that totally

1038
00:43:22,790 --> 00:43:20,940
excludes that from ever happening when

1039
00:43:24,290 --> 00:43:22,800
it's obvious that it did happen and I

1040
00:43:26,359 --> 00:43:24,300
think frauds just another example of

1041
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:26,369
that well the other thing too is the

1042
00:43:29,830 --> 00:43:27,930
word in the middle of this drug war and

1043
00:43:34,010 --> 00:43:29,840
anything that smacks in any way of

1044
00:43:35,450 --> 00:43:34,020
exactly it is is taboo and instead of

1045
00:43:37,550 --> 00:43:35,460
ending the drug war which is what I

1046
00:43:39,109 --> 00:43:37,560
think a lot of people hoped that Obama

1047
00:43:41,380 --> 00:43:39,119
would do and yet elected he's making it

1048
00:43:43,730 --> 00:43:41,390
worse he's amped up the drug war oh

1049
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:43,740
don't even get us started on the whole

1050
00:43:48,170 --> 00:43:45,450
political thing of course Obama is

1051
00:43:50,660 --> 00:43:48,180
obvious at this point a pure extension

1052
00:43:52,370 --> 00:43:50,670
of george w bush's most important

1053
00:43:53,750 --> 00:43:52,380
policies and anyone who doesn't see that

1054
00:43:55,849 --> 00:43:53,760
or thinks that there really is a

1055
00:43:58,350 --> 00:43:55,859
left-right paradigm in this country is

1056
00:43:59,700 --> 00:43:58,360
asleep at the switch but wait wait wait

1057
00:44:01,080 --> 00:43:59,710
gone there and I've jumped into that

1058
00:44:03,540 --> 00:44:01,090
whole thing I tell you what I want to

1059
00:44:06,210 --> 00:44:03,550
real quickly pick up on one other little

1060
00:44:08,910 --> 00:44:06,220
tidbit and again it's something that I

1061
00:44:10,500 --> 00:44:08,920
guess I kind of knew or a lot of people

1062
00:44:12,870 --> 00:44:10,510
know is out there but you did a great

1063
00:44:15,570 --> 00:44:12,880
job of really adding a little bit

1064
00:44:18,180 --> 00:44:15,580
something to it and that's Joseph Smith

1065
00:44:23,130 --> 00:44:18,190
one of the founders of the Mormon

1066
00:44:26,310 --> 00:44:23,140
religion and you document his use and

1067
00:44:28,910 --> 00:44:26,320
his father's use of this pearstone scam

1068
00:44:31,470 --> 00:44:28,920
can you tell us a little bit about that

1069
00:44:33,900 --> 00:44:31,480
well it's it's interesting because this

1070
00:44:37,740 --> 00:44:33,910
is all it's all been clearly documented

1071
00:44:40,500 --> 00:44:37,750
it's been known since the 1970s that and

1072
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:40,510
even before then that basically Joseph

1073
00:44:46,710 --> 00:44:43,210
Smith was a scam artist like his father

1074
00:44:48,870 --> 00:44:46,720
and they ran this scam where they would

1075
00:44:51,870 --> 00:44:48,880
go to say a rich farmer and they'd say

1076
00:44:54,030 --> 00:44:51,880
oh we've used our little magic stone

1077
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:54,040
here look through we can and we can tell

1078
00:44:57,750 --> 00:44:55,570
there's pirate treasure or whatever

1079
00:45:00,690 --> 00:44:57,760
Indian treasure buried on your farm and

1080
00:45:02,490 --> 00:45:00,700
for a small fee we will help you find it

1081
00:45:04,590 --> 00:45:02,500
and you can get your workers to dig it

1082
00:45:06,510 --> 00:45:04,600
up and then you'll be rich and they

1083
00:45:08,460 --> 00:45:06,520
found lots of farmers who thought all

1084
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:08,470
this makes sense and so they collect

1085
00:45:10,980 --> 00:45:09,610
their fee and they go up there with

1086
00:45:12,810 --> 00:45:10,990
their little stone they hold up their

1087
00:45:14,490 --> 00:45:12,820
eyes others the treasure is buried right

1088
00:45:16,140 --> 00:45:14,500
over there and so the farm workers would

1089
00:45:18,240 --> 00:45:16,150
get their shovels and start digging

1090
00:45:20,820 --> 00:45:18,250
start digging he was oh it's just a

1091
00:45:22,830 --> 00:45:20,830
little bit farther you know he played

1092
00:45:24,540 --> 00:45:22,840
them along as its kind playing a fishy

1093
00:45:26,340 --> 00:45:24,550
plan as long as he still had his

1094
00:45:28,530 --> 00:45:26,350
audience then suddenly he would say oh

1095
00:45:30,660 --> 00:45:28,540
wait a minute nobody goes have taken the

1096
00:45:33,090 --> 00:45:30,670
treasure away oh it's gone that's too

1097
00:45:35,730 --> 00:45:33,100
bad sorry about that and it leaves right

1098
00:45:38,370 --> 00:45:35,740
with his feet now this is a historical

1099
00:45:41,370 --> 00:45:38,380
fact that Joseph Smith's father is

1100
00:45:43,170 --> 00:45:41,380
actually arrested for this tried for

1101
00:45:44,580 --> 00:45:43,180
this he's known to be this kind of

1102
00:45:46,740 --> 00:45:44,590
swindler right i mean this is in right

1103
00:45:49,020 --> 00:45:46,750
and the historical record well the

1104
00:45:51,870 --> 00:45:49,030
interesting too is in the 1970s actually

1105
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:51,880
found a rest record of some kind for

1106
00:45:56,070 --> 00:45:54,370
Joseph Smith himself that they hadn't

1107
00:45:57,960 --> 00:45:56,080
found that until then I'm not quite sure

1108
00:45:59,460 --> 00:45:57,970
why they didn't find it earlier but

1109
00:46:01,710 --> 00:45:59,470
there actually is a wreck for Smith

1110
00:46:04,110 --> 00:46:01,720
himself too so he's also clearly the

1111
00:46:06,420 --> 00:46:04,120
police he thought of him as one of the

1112
00:46:08,940 --> 00:46:06,430
usual suspects yeah and then obviously

1113
00:46:10,290 --> 00:46:08,950
the connection if anyone doesn't know it

1114
00:46:11,610 --> 00:46:10,300
go ahead and tell people the connection

1115
00:46:16,170 --> 00:46:11,620
between that and

1116
00:46:18,810 --> 00:46:16,180
the Mormon Church well when he some time

1117
00:46:22,530 --> 00:46:18,820
later when he decided to found this

1118
00:46:25,020 --> 00:46:22,540
church he he claims to have found these

1119
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:25,030
golden plates that were hidden that the

1120
00:46:29,550 --> 00:46:26,890
angel Moroni helped him find his golden

1121
00:46:31,500 --> 00:46:29,560
plates and he would interpret them by

1122
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:31,510
looking through this pearstone at the

1123
00:46:35,010 --> 00:46:32,650
plates because you couldn't actually

1124
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:35,020
read writing on the plates you had used

1125
00:46:39,750 --> 00:46:36,810
the pier stone to look at the plate and

1126
00:46:42,660 --> 00:46:39,760
interpret what it said so the pier stone

1127
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:42,670
continued to be part of his story in

1128
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:44,410
establishing writing the book of the

1129
00:46:49,890 --> 00:46:47,050
Mormon establishing the Mormon Church

1130
00:46:52,710 --> 00:46:49,900
but it was just a scam on a much larger

1131
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:52,720
scale than his earlier scam and of

1132
00:46:55,980 --> 00:46:54,370
course we all know to at some point he

1133
00:47:01,620 --> 00:46:55,990
decided well you know maybe I convince

1134
00:47:02,970 --> 00:47:01,630
them I should have multiple wives why

1135
00:47:05,900 --> 00:47:02,980
not yeah they believe this other bull

1136
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:05,910
crap why would you just do you know

1137
00:47:11,730 --> 00:47:08,610
that's where that went yeah yeah

1138
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:11,740
fascinating Earl tell folks real quickly

1139
00:47:16,530 --> 00:47:15,130
how they can reach you some web

1140
00:47:19,650 --> 00:47:16,540
addresses will of course have them

1141
00:47:21,150 --> 00:47:19,660
linked up but tell them tell them if you

1142
00:47:23,070 --> 00:47:21,160
would who folks who are listening how

1143
00:47:26,460 --> 00:47:23,080
they can find out more about you and

1144
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:26,470
your writing well I have at web doing a

1145
00:47:30,450 --> 00:47:28,330
lot of documenting right now on my

1146
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:30,460
website called among the cannibal

1147
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:32,770
Christians the origin of religion of

1148
00:47:38,970 --> 00:47:36,010
ritual cannibalism and the address for

1149
00:47:42,930 --> 00:47:38,980
that site is cannibal Christians dot

1150
00:47:44,700 --> 00:47:42,940
blogspot com and it's probably easy to

1151
00:47:46,770 --> 00:47:44,710
use just to get to me through there or

1152
00:47:48,180 --> 00:47:46,780
you think there's a link to my google

1153
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:48,190
address if you want to send me a message

1154
00:47:52,500 --> 00:47:50,170
but that's where I'm putting all the

1155
00:47:54,300 --> 00:47:52,510
documentation I've collected about the

1156
00:47:56,460 --> 00:47:54,310
Christian Church and the catacombs and

1157
00:48:00,540 --> 00:47:56,470
their uses how they used their aunt Minh

1158
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:00,550
sand functions during that first two

1159
00:48:03,720 --> 00:48:01,810
three hundred years of Christian history

1160
00:48:05,730 --> 00:48:03,730
and I think you'll find I think you will

1161
00:48:07,110 --> 00:48:05,740
people find it fascinating all because

1162
00:48:09,810 --> 00:48:07,120
there's just a ton of evidence there

1163
00:48:11,820 --> 00:48:09,820
there is it's mind-boggling there really

1164
00:48:14,370 --> 00:48:11,830
is and you do a great job of bringing it

1165
00:48:17,460 --> 00:48:14,380
forward again you can also google the

1166
00:48:19,740 --> 00:48:17,470
book's title from the body of the gods

1167
00:48:21,690 --> 00:48:19,750
and you'll go immediately to Earl's

1168
00:48:24,630 --> 00:48:21,700
website or oh thanks so much for joining

1169
00:48:25,380 --> 00:48:24,640
me of fascinating work and best of luck

1170
00:48:27,890 --> 00:48:25,390
with it

1171
00:48:30,420 --> 00:48:27,900
thank you very much I appreciate it

1172
00:48:32,250 --> 00:48:30,430
thanks again too early for joining me

1173
00:48:34,020 --> 00:48:32,260
today on skeptic Oh a couple of

1174
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:34,030
questions I'd toss out to you as a

1175
00:48:40,290 --> 00:48:37,210
result of this interview the first is

1176
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:40,300
what do you think happened I guess

1177
00:48:44,490 --> 00:48:42,610
there's three possibilities one that

1178
00:48:47,190 --> 00:48:44,500
there's absolutely no connection between

1179
00:48:51,180 --> 00:48:47,200
the use of psychedelic drugs and these

1180
00:48:54,270 --> 00:48:51,190
early religious founders to that as

1181
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:54,280
early suggests these guys were tripping

1182
00:48:58,530 --> 00:48:56,410
on mushrooms and the resulting

1183
00:49:01,170 --> 00:48:58,540
hallucinations are what we can attribute

1184
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:01,180
to these crazy tales that they came up

1185
00:49:05,910 --> 00:49:02,890
with in these books that became

1186
00:49:08,340 --> 00:49:05,920
scripture or three yeah they were

1187
00:49:11,580 --> 00:49:08,350
tripping on shrooms but that allowed

1188
00:49:14,670 --> 00:49:11,590
them to access another subtler realm of

1189
00:49:18,210 --> 00:49:14,680
consciousness in which some real genuine

1190
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:18,220
spiritual transmission happened so

1191
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:20,530
that's question one let's sort that out

1192
00:49:26,670 --> 00:49:23,650
and question two is what do we do with

1193
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:26,680
the growing body of evidence that seems

1194
00:49:33,350 --> 00:49:29,530
to consistently point towards the foul

1195
00:49:36,330 --> 00:49:33,360
ability of religion of sacred texts and

1196
00:49:38,610 --> 00:49:36,340
institutions that tell us what God is

1197
00:49:41,340 --> 00:49:38,620
all about I mean it's a pretty sorry

1198
00:49:43,620 --> 00:49:41,350
state of affairs really and it's hard to

1199
00:49:46,380 --> 00:49:43,630
find much of a silver lining other than

1200
00:49:49,530 --> 00:49:46,390
the unique individual experiences that

1201
00:49:52,470 --> 00:49:49,540
prop up from time to time so what are we

1202
00:49:55,500 --> 00:49:52,480
to make of religion should we just chuck

1203
00:49:58,590 --> 00:49:55,510
it all or is there something there worth

1204
00:50:00,990 --> 00:49:58,600
saving that's a huge question but it's

1205
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:01,000
one that continues to not me and I'm

1206
00:50:06,750 --> 00:50:03,850
sure you all will have quite a bit to

1207
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:06,760
say about it as well of course the place

1208
00:50:14,550 --> 00:50:09,970
to share your opinion is through the

1209
00:50:16,830 --> 00:50:14,560
skeptic Oh website at ske PTI koat.com

1210
00:50:19,410 --> 00:50:16,840
you can leave a comment there send me an

1211
00:50:22,230 --> 00:50:19,420
email or click on over to our forum and

1212
00:50:24,870 --> 00:50:22,240
join the conversation over there have a

1213
00:50:27,030 --> 00:50:24,880
number of interesting shows coming up I

1214
00:50:29,370 --> 00:50:27,040
hope you'll stay with me for all of that

1215
00:50:31,230 --> 00:50:29,380
I hope you'll keep listening to skeptic

1216
00:50:34,350 --> 00:50:31,240
oh and tell your friends about it as you